President s Message. San Diego Region. Volume 47 Issue 9 October 2010
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1 San Diego Region President s Message Volume 47 Issue 9 October 2010 The 2010 PI National Driving Tour is well underway and, as a participant in the tour, I am writing this message from my hotel room in Bishop, CA. It s is a well attended tour with participants from the SoCal, San Diego, Arizona, and NorCal Regions. The tour began on the afternoon of Thursday September 16 th, when we met at the hotel in Victorville. Bright and early on Friday morning, the Packards caravanned out to Edwards Air Force base where we all boarded a bus at the entrance gate. For the next 4 hours we toured the base with everything we saw explained to us by a very capable guide (who was also an air traffic controller at Edwards). We saw many aircraft under development or test - including the modified 747 that transports the space shuttle back to Florida whenever inclement weather forces it to land at Edwards. It was a rare chance to get an extraordinary behind-the-scenes tour of the second largest Air Force base in the U.S. That afternoon we caravanned the 150 miles to Lone Pine. On Saturday, we toured the Beverly and Jim Rogers Museum of Lone Pine Film History. Lone Pine is the home of the Alabama Hills, an area where hundreds of movies were filmed includeing many episodes of Hopalong Cassidy, Roy Rogers, and the Lone Ranger TV programs. Famous movies such as Gunga Din, The Hitchhiker, The Roundup, and Brigham Young were filmed in the area. A museum docent gave us a driving tour (in our Packards of course) of all of the famous spots in the hills where the most memorable movie scenes were filmed. In the afternoon, we visited the Manzanar Historic Site, a WWII relocation center for Americans of Japanese ancestry. On Sunday afternoon, our Packards were on display to the public in the parking lot of the museum while in the museum s theater we leisurely watched black & white films shot in area during the 40 s & 50 s. Monday morning was another Packard caravan to the (Mt) Whitney Portal where we had breakfast at 8,500 ft elevation and watched hikers depart on the Whitney Trail for the summit at 14,000+ feet. It s a 22 mile round trip hike from the portal (for those of you that might be interested in making the trek). The views and scenery at the Portal are breathtaking. In the afternoon, you guessed it another caravan, this time 60 miles north to the town of Bishop. Today (Tuesday) was a caravan up to Lake Sabrina at 9,130 feet elevation. Some of us hiked part way around the lake while others stayed back and enjoyed the crisp mountain air and spectacular scenery of quaking aspen trees beginning the change to fall colors. Tomorrow we re off to the ghost town of Bodie and the Mono Lake region, including driving the scenic June Lake Loop. Thursday is our tour of Ancient Bristlecone Pine National Scenic Byway one of the most scenic and spectacular drives in California. On Friday (last day of the tour) we tour the Laws Railroad Museum and Historical Village while our Packards are once again on display to the public. That night will be the tour ending banquet and presentation of awards. Saturday is our drive home day. Sunday is the San Diego Region event the Coronado Speed Festival. Hope you can make it out for an exciting day of vintage car racing. Happy Tours & Wishing You Were Here, Inside this issue President s Message 1 Ads 2 Lyons and Webb Tour 3 Packards to Borrego Springs Tour 4 Rallye What Is It? 5-6 Election and Voting 6 Veterans Home of California Tour 7 Christmas Gala 8 Winners/Packard Firsts/Calendar 9 Packard Spotted at Pebble Beach President Mark Burnside (760) markburnside@cox.net V.P. Scott Napora scottnapora@yahoo.com Treasurer Steve Ross (619) inewsx@sbcglobal.net Secretary/Historian Brian Wagner wagnerindy@sbcglobal.net Membership Karl Ramsing kpramsing@sbcglobal.net (760) Projects Paul Santy pjsanty@sbcglobal.net (760) Webmaster Mark Burnside markburnside@cox.net Tour Director Richard Schauer packard1934@sbcglobal.net (760) Newsletter Gary Wysong (619) gwysong@cox.net Website: packardsandiego.org Find P.I. San Diego information, links to P.I. Chapters & P.I. National Events Mark Burnside
2 FOR SALE CARS AND PARTS 48 Packard Super 8 Convertible, maroon, recent paint, chrome, wiring, some extra parts, $49,000; Robert or rmcatee3@cox.net 9/10 55 Packard Clipper 2Door Hardtop Coupe, blue/white ext, 54,200 orig miles, new brakes. Steven /10 Losing garage space, must sell: 55 Super Clipper Constellation 55 Super Clipper Constellation 56 Clipper Deluxe (not complete) 57 57L-P8 Clipper Donald Smith, rd St., San Diego, CA For P.I. San Diego Members: Do you have a collector car or parts for sale? To place an ad in our newsletter, Gary Wysong at gwysong@cox.net or call If you have an address at home or work, but get your newsletter by regular mail, Gary Wysong to be placed on our list. 54 Packard Cavalier, red, A/C, show condition, drive anywhere, $25,000; Bill or rmcatee@cox.net P.I. Website 9/10 49 Packard Custom 8 Sedanet, blue, original interior, was in Tom Mix collection in MA, $36,500; or silverhawken@cox.net 9/10 56 Packard Door Hardtop Convertible, one owner, #5 condition, $12,000; Mairon or maironmm@aol.com P.I. Website 10/10 Members: Your Board needs your Recommended Services/Parts persons or firms that you have had favorable dealings with during restoration and preservation of your Packards. Please send person/firm (name/address/phone number) to Mark Burnside at markburnside@cox.net where he will post this on our updated website. We are also accumulating a list to publish for your use Karl Ramsing 41 Packard Darrin 1906 Custom 180 Victoria Convertible, red with tan top, previous CCCA National 1 st award, Tom Crook Packard Executive 4-Door Sedan, black, 10K in resto and repair, $9,900; George , geoferrjr@aol.com. P.I. Website 10/10 35 Packard V-12 Convertible Coupe/Roadster Model [ 1207, previous CCCA National 1 st award, ready to show or drive, $265,000; Tom Crook /10 27 Packard 443 Club Coupe, original interior, gorgeous newer paint, ready to drive or show. $54,800; Harry ; classicpromenade.com 10/10 41 Packard 120 Convertible Coupe, Andes tan over Wilshire brown, $65,000; or danshan1@sbcglobal.net 9/10 51 Packard Patrician 400, turquoise, 95% restored, new chrome, over 25K in spare parts, $25,000; Jim or travelingdog@earthlink.com P.I. Website 9/10 55 Packard with auto trans, needs complete resto, $1,500 obo; 55 Packard Super Clipper with 3 speed manual trans, new master cyl, new wheel cyls, just needs interior, $4,000 obo, for pictures, kevin.frantum@live.com 41 Packard Super Coupe, black, great to drive anywhere, $29,850; Tom Crook / Packard parts for sale: parting out a 56 Patrician, including rebuilt engine, overdrive transmission, etc. Also parts from 55 Patrician, 56 Executive, and 56 Clipper; trunk lock assembly, two 352 c.i. engines, one 374 c.i. engine, rebuilt Chrysler 727 transmission-fits Ultra-torque for V-8 s, V-8 senior tail lights, load leveling motors, 4-barrel carb, instrument panel with gauges-probably from Executive, third member for 55 Patrician-missing left axle, plus other misc. parts. Robert Dougherty, , P.O. Box 337, Poway, CA Rental Space For Car Storage: A few spaces available for rent in a clean airplane hanger in El Cajon. Call John at /10 Buy Packard parts at the packardsandiego.org website 49 Packard Custom 8 Sedanet, blue, original interior, from Tom Mix Collection, $36,500; , silverhawken@cox.net P.I.Website 10/10 51 Packard Patrician 400, black, rust free, good chrome, $17,000; , rjmatthews@comcast.net P.I. Website, 10/10 Check these two websites for Packard Information: Packardinfo.com yesterdays-cars.com/packard_clubs.htm See McLellan s Automotive History for Packard Sales Literature, Dealer Literature, Magazines, Out-of-Print Books, Manuals & Memorabilia or mclellansautomotive.com 4 WWW L78-15 tires, rims & wheel covers, quite nice, All: $400 Pair fender skirts for 30 s Juniors, aftermarket, never used: $ Packard radio, don t know if it works: $40; 4 hexagon bumper bolts, w/lock washers and nuts, beautiful chrome make offer; Hilarious sounding horn supposedly from 1912 Packard: $100 Call Albert or albertpurcell@cox.net
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4 PACKARDS TO BORREGO SPRINGS by Steve Ross The planning is complete, the route is determined and we are ready for the most spectacular event of the year and perhaps the biggest blast since I have been a member. The announcement you have all been waiting for follows: The Packard s will meet at the Westlake Shopping Center in Escondido, CA (formerly known as North County Fair) at 09:30 A.M. Saturday morning October 30. After a short brief by the Rallye Master you will depart at 10;00 A.M., for the Borrego Springs Resort. The journey to Borrego will be composed of landmarks for you to identify, things that were points of interest to the Rallye Master and he thinks you should find and enjoy them as well. There will be questions for you and your navigator to answer pertaining to automobiles, American history etc. You are encouraged to bring the whole family as there is something for everyone. If all goes well you should arrive at the resort around 1:00 P.M. or perhaps 2:00 P.M. The total distance is approximately 70 miles unless you depart from the Rallye Masters Rallye sheet and decide to explore on your own and find a more exciting route. The other participants love to hear of these adventures at the awards banquet. We are throwing in a lunch stop along the way. Three hours to complete the rallye means you will have to average a hellish speed of 24 MPH. I think a Model T could do that. Upon arrival at the resort you may turn in your rallye sheet to the jovial kind Rallye Master and proceed to your room, stop by the hospitality suite for a beverage, go swimming, play some golf or whatever you want until the awards banquet beginning at 6:00 P.M. in the resort restaurant where we will share experiences, relive the rallye, have a beverage and set down to a really nice dinner. No need to drive any more until you go home. Oh yes we will be presenting major awards to those drivers and navigators who pleased the Rallye Master with their completed rallye sheets. The awards will be in keeping with the status and prestige of the Packard automobile. Sunday morning we will meet for breakfast on our own for those who want to participate. We will have a spot for us to sit together. After breakfast you may proceed to wherever? You are encouraged to drive your Packard but if it fails to proceed as sometimes the old girls decide to do, please drive your other car and you will be treated as if you were driving your 34 Dual Cowl Phaeton. There will be awards for non Packard s so you need not be deterred because you are not driving a Packard. In fact we encourage you to bring the other car. Bring your other old car, PLEASE. FILL OUT THE RESERVATION, CUT ON THE DOTTED LINE AND MAIL =========================================================== NAME CAR MEAL CHOICE: Prime Rib with Baked Potato X ( ) Salmon with Honey-Chipotle sauce with chef s Specialty Rice X ( ) All entries served with dinner salad, dressings, fresh baked rolls, butter and fresh veggies. COST PER COUPLE: $ COST FOR SINGLE: $ Send check by October 25, 2010 to: Steve Ross, Fruitvale Road, Valley Center, CA Phone
5 RALLYE-WHAT IS IT?? by Steve Ross Rallye? First of all it is spelled funny. Shouldn t it be Rally? When an E is placed on the end of rally the word becomes associated with an automobile event. Ford named one of their cars Rallye to try and associate with the European flair of a rallye car. The word has been around for about 400 years and got its beginning in France. In the context of automobiles rallye means to gather a group of cars and drivers at a chosen location and proceed to a different location, or return to the starting point, following specific route, instructions, guidelines or rules. The rallye may specify a particular brand, year, or model of car or it may be open to any automobile. Some rallye s, usually held in Europe or South America are very serious driving events with a lot of honor, pride and usually a lot of money at stake. High speeds are the norm for these rallye s. The cars consist of a driver, navigator, and sometimes a relief for each. They are often equipped with an on board computer. The times and distance are measured to the hundredth of a mile and hundredth of a second. The course may be on difficult terrain as well as paved roads. So you are asking what does this rallye, I mean really mean to me. I am never going to do that in my Packard and you are correct. In our Packard world a rallye is when we gather our Packard s together at a specific location and drive to a new destination following specific instructions and directions. We do not require anything other than a Packard and driver. A navigator is highly recommended but not required. Our rallye teams usually consist of a driver, husband, wife, significant other, Mom, Dad, friend, kids and grandkids, as navigators. Sometimes this confuses the driver they become grouchy but that is the way of a rallye. A pencil, paper and clip board are nice to have but not required. The pencil and paper are highly recommended unless you have a photographic memory. An eraser might come in handy too. Our rallye s NEVER require nor advocate breaking the speed limit or any other traffic laws. The most important element of a rallye is the Rallye Master (RM). This is the person who designs the rallye, determines the destination and answers to the questions and clues.. They drive the route at least twice ensuring that the check points are correct and the distance is correct to within a tenth of a mile. The Rallye Master designs and prints the route sheet and rules for each team to follow. The RM makes reservations at the establishment where the rallye teams will receive refreshment and presentation of awards. Awards are typically 1 st, 2 nd and 3 rd place. Some RM s deviate from this and present more awards and may give out a special RM award as he or she sees fit. The RM will provide each team with written instructions. These instructions may include stops, observations to record, and clues as to where to change directions, distance traveled, questions about various subjects etc. The rallye is always driven on paved roads, non gravel, and typically back country roads, not heavily traveled roads and freeways. There are times when the rally teams may be on a freeway for a short distance. Every effort is made to have the route over lightly traveled back county roads that have scenic beauty, some history and interesting sights. Believe it or not there are still a lot of these roads in San Diego County. I have been doing rallye s in San Diego County for over 20 years and I still see things I did not know existed. Our Region rallye s are designed to be completed in 1.5 to 2 hours with 3 to 4 hours allotted for those who take a bit longer. This gives everyone time for a rest stop, read directions etc. The RM usually has a rest or lunch stop built into the rallye. Bottom line, this is NOT a timed event. Our rallye s are scored in the following manner. Each team has a rallye sheet of directions and instructions where you may enter your answers to the clues, questions and other required observations that you saw along the way as specified by the RM. The rallye route will cover a specific route and mileage as determined by the RM. The team with the most correct answers and miles driven closest to the RM miles is the first place winner and so on. In some clubs a formula is used by to calculate a correction factor for each cars odometer reading to account for a difference in rims, tire size and other differences in the drive train. We do not do that in our region. It is of paramount importance to record you mileage at the beginning of the rally or set your odometer to zero if you have one. If you ole gal s mileage counter doesn t work do not worry you still have a chance to take home some bacon. We are all apprehensive about our first rallye and there is absolutely no reason for this. I was shamed into running my first rallye and I won third place! The first time team has the same chance of winning as the experienced or so called Old Hands. It not at all unusual for the first time out team to win first place. The way to win, follow the RM s instructions to a tee. Do not read things into the rallye sheet.
6 I feel confident in saying that you will have a great time and truly enjoy running one of our region s rallye s. I promise they will be fun and educational. Remember the rallye is a family affair so bring everyone. In the beginning of this dissertation it was stated that a Packard was required for our rallye. This is not true. You may drive any car you want. We hope it will be your other oldest car. Non Packard s will be edible to earn an award. We give really nice awards, usually something you can use. All of the rallye s that I do are run in my 1939 Packard Super Eight at least once. If the Yellow Peril struggles I change the route. Rallye rule of the world is: Rule #1. The Rallye Master is Always Right. Rule # 2 if the Rallye Master is wrong, refer to rule # 1. Our motto is; if you are not having fun you are not doing it right. See you at our next rallye in October 2010 ELECTION AND VOTING None Of My Business And Not My Job by Steve Ross I am neither the chairman of the election committee nor a member of the committee. I am just a member and happen to be your treasurer duly elected and installed. I chose to run again because I enjoy being on the board and being a part of the PI SD Region. Our Region is approaching the most important and critical time of the year for us. That is electing new Board members and Officers. I absolutely cannot stress enough the importance of voting for your Regional leaders. These are the people who run the day to day operation of your region, publish your Predictor, manage and administrate your parts sales, and plan all of those fun events you enjoy so much. These are the men and women who make it happen. They raise the funds to subsidize nearly all of our events, in order to keep the costs down for us members. If the right people are not filling these positions your officers and directors may not manage your region s funds properly, publish a newsletter or have any events. When you do not bother to vote it sends a dis-hearting and discouraging message to our board members and officers. I may have made all this sound very serious but remember it supposed to be fun or we aren t doing it right. 99% of the time it is fun especially if a little planning has occurred. So, please vote and consider running for one of the offices in our region. I have held two positions on the board. I can and will tell you honestly what the positions entail. We have a critical opening now for a Predictor Editor and a President. These positions are not hard difficult. I know because I have been a club president and a newsletter editor. Gary Wysong practically has this on automatic now. Why not consider joining us on the board and have some fun. Give me or any board member a call anytime. Steve Ross inewsx@sbcglobal.net FAX: Talk to us!
7 THE VETERANS HOME OF CALIFORNIA, CHULA VISTA Saturday November 13, 2010 Please consider taking one day this year, to personally thank and honor the Veterans currently residing at The Veterans Home of California, Chula Vista. This is an opportunity for us to share our cars and stories with these men and women and to brighten their day by having them see examples of some of America s best motorcars. It is likely your day will be rewarded with their smiles, stories and the chance to see the pride our veterans share in having honorably served their country. Veteran s Day will be celebrated this year on Thursday, November 11, We will meet at the VHC-CV at 10:00 a.m. to park and display our cars, no rides will be offered. Veterans may arrive by walking, walker, wheelchair, or by gurney please warmly greet and accommodate them. Packards International members that drive or ride in a pre-1974 automobile are welcome to receive a FREE meal ticket and rotate into the cafeteria to dine with the Veterans. Other attendees are welcome to purchase their meal to eat with the Veterans in the cafeteria. A few members and guests should always remain with the cars during our tour to be able to interact with the Veterans arriving and returning from lunch. We will not have a general tour of the facility because of security and privacy issues. As a club, we previously visited this wonderful facility in about After lunch, we will remain with the cars until the tour ends at 1:00 p.m. The Veterans Home of California, Chula Vista is located on a 30-acre site off Telegraph Canyon Road at 700 East Naples Court, adjacent to Sharp Chula Vista Medical Center. It is the only Veterans home located in coastal, urban Southern California. VHC-CV provides residents with numerous cultural and recreational opportunities. Completed in May 2000, the 400-bed long-term care facility provides options for Domiciliary Independent Living, Licensed Residential, and Skilled Nursing Care. Employed physicians provide medical care in both the licensed outpatient clinic and the inpatient skilled nursing settings. Acute care is provided at either the La Jolla U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, or at the nearby Sharp Hospital in Chula Vista. Veterans desiring to be considered for membership must be residents of California, age 62 or older (or younger if disabled), and have served honorably. Directions: Drive south on I-805 to Chula Vista. Take exit 6 at Telegraph Canyon Rd toward L St East/L St West, keep left at the fork, follow the signs for Telegraph Canyon Road East. Drive east on Telegraph Canyon Rd 0.5 mile, turn right on Oleander Ave and drive 0.4 mile, turn left at East Naples St and drive 0.6 mile, continue straight onto East Naples Court and into the VHC-CV. Tour Leader: Gary Wysong, home, cell, or gwysong@cox.net
8 SPECIAL ANNOUCEMENT CHRISTMAS GALA DECEMBER 4, 2010 Can it be possible that another year has gone by and we are getting ready for our Regions end of year gala event referred to as our Christmas, Holiday, End of Year Party or whatever you want to refer to it as, your choice. So long as you join us. We return by popular demand to the Lazy H Ranch in Pauma Valley. We will enjoy the ambience of the big stone fire place in the John Wayne Room and dine on a scrumptious Prime Rib dinner with all the trimmings. For those do not like Prime Rib (and some folks do not) we will have a Red Snapper fish dish which is excellent, and of course there will be a vegetarian dinner for non meat eaters. Dessert will be Chef s choice. We try hard to accommodate everyone! All this for $35.00! As is our tradition we will exchange gifts with a value of not over $25.00 This is not a White Elephant exchange so don t clean out your garage, unless it something really nice for a Packard! Also we will follow tradition and do a Chinese gift exchange (may not be politically correct). Mark Rothermich, you must be there!! Added Bonus. Each person driving a Packard to this gala will receive a free drink of choice from me, your party guy treasurer. Another reason, as if you needed a one, meet, eat and partake of an adult beverage with greatest people on earth, the Packard owner. This event is our best attended event of the year so get your reservations in early. It is possible to fill up the John Wayne Room and we don t want me to have to eat outside. Then again maybe you do. We are having the party early in the afternoon so that those of you who are not comfortable driving the Packard after dark can make it home before you turn into an Elf Number in party; ( ) X $35.00 = Menu Selection: (A) Prime Rib Number ( ) (B) Red snapper Number ( ) (C) Veggie Number ( ) Time: 1 P.M. 2:00 P.M. Deadline for reservations: November 30, Questions call Steve or , inewsx@sbcglobal.net
9 WINNERS OF THE MYSTERY CAR CONTEST There are two winners for the mystery car contest. They are Dr. Albert Purcell and Debbi Costanzo. These lucky Packardites have won a free pass to our annual Christmas/Holiday party fully described in this Predictor. The mystery car is a 1941 Hupp Skylark. The car is located at the Afton Station Route 66 Packard Museum in Afton OK. I was first there five years ago and returned last June. The Hupp was not there five years ago. It completely threw me largely due to the Packard steering wheel. I finally found the brand name on the found of the car. The Hupp was purchased several years ago by Laurel Richards Kane, the owner of the museum, from a man in New York and he had purchase it from a man on the west coast. The horn ring, who knows? Laurel said she had the correct horn ring for the Hupp but had just never put it on. The website for the Packard Museum in Afton is The answers accepted were 1940 or 1941 as the Cars were all built at the same time at the Cord factory which had taken over Hupp at that time, I think. This explains to me why it looks like a cord. Congratulations to our austere winners. FIRSTMANSHIP WAS A PACKARD TRADEMARK Courtesy of Gerald Perschbacher, and Old Cars Weekly News Packard was the first to use a steering wheel as standard equipment and used the H shift pattern on all models. Other car makers were toying with the idea but Packard jumped ahead and went whole-hog with the idea. This was a significant step in 1901 when tillers were pretty much the norm by other car makers. As we all know the H shift pattern proved Packard right and became the standard. CALENDAR Oct 16: Oct 30-31: Nov 13: Dec 4: Lyon Air Museum/Lew Webb Car Company Overnight Driving Tour and Road Rallye, Borrego Springs Visit to California Veterans Home, Chula Vista 10:00 a.m. 1:00 p.m., *complimentary lunch in dining hall with veterans* (drive or be a passenger in a pre-1974 car) Holiday
10 PACKARD SPOTTED AT PEBBLE BEACH by Steve Ross There were three very rare and in this case a one of a kind on the field at the Pebble Beach Concours d Elegance this year. The Packard in these photographs is a 1938 Packard 1601 Graber Cabriolet. A description of this automobile given at the Concurs is; A 1938 Packard model 1601 Graber Cabriolet. This unique 1938 Packard Cabriolet by the Swiss Coach builder Graber has the 4.6 liter (280CI) 8 cylinder on a Super Eight Chassis. (Apparently it has a 120 motor.) First shown at the Geneva Auto Salon in 1938, this is just one of two or three Packard s that were bodied by Graber along with three Duesenbergs, one of which was at the Concours. This Packard was a barn find 20 years ago but it took the present owner the better part of two decades to convince the reluctant owner to sell. This Packard has spent all of its life in Switzerland and had not been driven since At that time the car was owned by Mr. and Mrs. Walter Messerli. Mr. Messerli became ill and his wife put the car away in a garage in Switzerland. The Current owner of the Packard and the Graber Coach building name bought the car in After some minor mechanic work the car runs like new again! The owner is listed as Erich Traber of Salenstein, Switzerland. As you see in the photos this Packard is totally original. The paint is in bad shape with some rust. Some of what looks like rust is really paint. The interior is in excellent shape for the age as well as the convertible top. Note the blackout head light covers used during the war. This Packard has some Darrin lines in my opinion.
11 Some rust but not bad for an original I am not sure that some of this is not rust but primer from the original paint. In person it doesn t look like rust. Interesting trunk lid. Note the Swiss license badge. The exhaust deflector is a Packard one! Interior is in really good shape. The odometer indicated 18,999 miles and I think it is correct based on the floor mats and pedals. The rear tires appear to have a snow-tire tread pattern. As you can see the interior is quite nice for its age. I am making the assumption that it is original. Would be nice to know what the original upholstery was, but this is leather. SUBJECT FOR OUR NEXT PREDICTOR Who in our club has one of these??
U-Score U-Score AAC Rank AAC Rank Vocabulary Vocabulary
go 1 927 you 2 7600 i 3 4443 more 4 2160 help 5 659 it 6 9386 want 7 586 in 8 19004 that 9 10184 like 10 1810 what 11 2560 make 12 1264 is 13 10257 on 14 6674 out 15 2350 do 16 2102 here 17 655 eat 18
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